Will the real Java engine please stand up?

[thatcrazycajun]

Am I the only one who thinks that people smart enough to write software that automatically updates itself ought to be smart enough to make that software find and get rid of its predecessor version(s) during installation of updates?

Evidently this is beyond the folks at Sun Microsystems. Which is why I find myself with no less than three—count 'em, three—different versions of the Java runtime engine on my system, counting the current one I'm supposed to have. Which goes a long way toward explaining those frequent script errors I've been seeing on startup.

So when the new troubleshooting guide for Documentum, which is Java-based, came down today from $TEMPCLIENT's IS department, one of its suggestions is "check the Add and Remove Programs control panel to make sure you have only the current version of Java Runtime Environment SE and remove older versions."

Now why on God's green and pleasant Earth didn't I think of that months ago? Guess I'm silly for expecting not to have to think of it any more than I have to think about updating it.

Comments

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

Actually...I'd rather they kept the old version, because if the new one breaks anything, it makes it much easier to back it out.

Yeah, it takes up space, but it's not a bad way of doing things

[thatcrazycajun.livejournal.com]

>>Yeah, it takes up space, but it's not a bad way of doing things.<<

It is when it causes mission-critical or non-optional apps to crash out on startup. Running two Java engines at once confuzzles my poor system.

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

No more than one should be running. I've got at least 4 iterations of Java on my machine, but only one's running at any given time.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

I'm with Dave. And especially with Java, which is less than fully backwards-compatible...hell, my workplace is still using 1.4.

My Linux machine offers a java-config program that lets me select which JRE my computer will use, from all the installed versions.

[technoshaman.livejournal.com]

What distro is this?

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

Gentoo.

[mdlbear]

Debian has something similar: it's all done as part of the alternatives scheme, which is what lets you have multiple implementations of things like java and emacs, and select the appropriate one as a default.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

[shelleybear.livejournal.com]

They got it all planned out.
The cost of hard drives is dropping to an unreal extent (500 gig drive for $100.00 bucks) so, pretty soon there will be apps that take up entire standalone drives in your computer.
Just follow the trends she said.

[bardling.livejournal.com]

Are you sure it's not a configuration issue?
Most software that does update itself has a config setting somewhere to configure that you do want it to do that. IMO, any decent software will also have an option that precludes it from automatically updating itself - and if it's good, further options ranging from "automatically check for & notify me if there's an update, but not more" via "check & auto-download, but do not install an update" - and I haven't checked, but I'd not be surprised (would hope for, in fact) if there were configurable options allowing you to decide whether to keep alongside, backup or overwrite any existing Java version with the update.
(No, I don't let any of my software download & install automatic updates, Java & Windows included, except for the virus checker db update. ;)

I'm with the folks here who've been saying they like to keep older versions. At least until I know whether the update has any problems and whether I'm happy with it.
(for that matter, I frequently wish they'd stop "updating" bloody software. Once it's reached a stage of "does everything I need well", I don't want any more additions/changes to potentially fuck things up or inundate me with things I don't need taking up space (whether harddrive or visual ;)

[egoldberg.livejournal.com]

Based on my own experience working at Sun, I would not expect much in terms of usability from their products.

[tarkrai.livejournal.com]

*snerk* And that's for the stuff they expect you to pay money for.

See my commentary on living with the differing (incompatible) Java versions- it does seem to work if you shake the chicken just so...

[egoldberg.livejournal.com]

By the way, if you ever want to hook up, I forgot that you live in Germany. I'll be in Enschede (biking distance of German border) for the next 7-8 months as of 1/1/2008.

[tarkrai.livejournal.com]

Ok, let's take a look at this.

Java is an application that will run on *any* platform that has had an engine written for it- be that Mac, Windows, Linux, HP-UX, AIX, etc. (of course, Solaris, too...).

Which means a single application platform that has to be flexible enough to handle *every* *single* different type of system call each different platform can produce.

Yes, Java is slow and memory-intensive- it's one of the several trade-offs you get for the massive platform compatibility. Another is a lack of backwards compatibility (as filkerdave pointed out). However, this hasn't kept it from becoming ubiquitous in development environments that require multiple-platform access (like the Web).

When I was a consultant, it was normal to be at a client site that had installed Java JRE 1.5, and have a bunch of broken Java apps. Is this because Java is broken? No- it's because the broken apps all need JRE 1.4... and they say you can't run 1.4 and 1.5 on the same machine- yet you're in an environment where you have 2 applets that require different JRE versions that are required to run on one system.

Headache.

The secret solution? Install in number order. Wipe *all* of 'em off the drive- then install the oldest first, then the next, then the next (f'r example, install 1.4, *then* 1.5 If you have 1.5 installed, then try to install 1.4 over it; nothing will work). THIS way, they actually all live together peacefully (or at least they have in my experience).

I used to bitch exactly this way about it. Then, I realized that Java, like many other applications out on the 'Net (especially FREE software) is a work in progress. It's in the process of becoming- it already has a platform share that is impressive, to say the least.

So, to return to your bitch... Documentum is an EMC product. EMC's Java-based interfaces almost all run on Java 1.4.2. See if you have Java 5 in there- and if so, uninstall it. Install 1.4.2; then *reinstall* Java 5- everything should work then.

[tarkrai.livejournal.com]

Hm. Sorry- I meant to agree that Java *is* broken, but unfortunately since we have to live with the cracked cup and ancient coffee, do the best you can to find ways around it. Since it's Sun, and it's free software... well, you gets what you gets.

[acelightning.livejournal.com]

[mdlbear]

I routinely write and test java applications that have to run on different platforms, with different implementations of java. It's essential for me to have multiple versions around at the same time.

At any given moment only one of those is the default (i.e. the one invoked by the "java" command), but I can and do change the default when I have to.

[cellio]

Same here. I insteall each in its own directory (none of which is the default installation location), and point my path wherever I need it to be. (Well, through a layer of indirection -- I set JAVA_HOME to the currently-favored version and then put that environment variable on PATH.)

Two things

[a-phoenix-afire.livejournal.com]

First, this is the thing I'm always preaching about. Computing is easy right up until something breaks. On every platform there are environment variables which point to the version of Java that you want to run. If you have installed each version in its own directory instead of overwriting them, you can set these variables to point to the version your desired apps require, but ONLY ONE VERSION AT A TIME. This is only completely true for the command line. If you have windows and are trying t use one of the GUI IDEs then those settings are in the registry and you should not even ask about that, let alone mess with it.

Two. Much as I hate the way MS ripped off Sun by creating .NET from the proprietary info they stole when they licensed Java, the simple truth is, they've improved the model, albeit for only one platform.

They've done this by the simple expedient of making all dlls (called assemblies) that a .NET program will need, part of the installation package. This means that there doesn't have to be a systemwide registration in either the environment Vars OR the registry. They simply put all the files in one directory and the app knows which version to use.

This makes a huge mess of the file system, but then again, nobody's been able to figure out which files to delete when they install new versions anyway(or on any platform for that matter).

I know this doesn't help. There is no help to be had. It's the same with every vendor. They don't consider it their job to make sure your disk is kept clean, only that their latest version work; all other versions and apps be damned.

[sodyera.livejournal.com]

Whenever Sun Microsystems comes up in a conversation I can't help but remember a piece of dialogue from some ex-job where a woman said quite casually,
"We're going to have to download from the Sun."
It sounded so fantastically futuristic at the time.