Has MoveOn gone too far?

[thatcrazycajun]

This story on NPR's Morning Edition today discusses MoveOn.org's controversial media campaign to end U.S. military presence in Iraq. Their recent ads on TV and in newspapers accuse Junior Bush, his would-be successor Rudy Giuliani (R) and Gen. David Petraeus of "the B-word"—betrayal: of the American people (who in theory made clear with last year's Congressional election results their wish to have our troops brought home NOW and the occupation ended); of the troops themselves, who are being shot at, maimed and killed daily to what a growing number of Americans see as no worthy purpose; and of the Iraqi people, who expected true freedom would be theirs with the fall of Saddam Hussein.

Republicans and conservatives argue that the organization, whatever the validity or lack thereof in its policy proposals, has crossed the line in unfairly attacking the character of good and decent men out of frustration with the lack of progress in ending the "endless war." (At least two editorial cartoonists have depicted the group as living in the sewer following the now-notorious "General Betray-Us" ad in the New York Times.)  Are they right? Should I reconsider my involvement in an organization whose goals may be honorable, but whose means are questionable? Or is it, as MoveOn's head Eli Pariser asserts, past time to take the gloves off and confront both GOP and Democrat leaders who refuse to bring the troops home at once?

Comments

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

For seven years, maybe longer, the Republicans have been trying to paint the Democrats as traitors, individually and collectively, with a spin machine which painted a decorated war veteran who lost three limbs as a cowardly surrender-monkey, and created "hypothetical" situations about illegitimate children fathered by Democrats; MoveOn uses the word "betrayal" a few times, in reference to a pattern of lies and falsehoods, and you're ready to sever ties because the Republicans are crying "you called me names!"?

Dude, what?

[thatcrazycajun.livejournal.com]

Saying "the other guys did it worse" doesn't make it any more right; I just got through castigating the other side for doing exactly that in re the US Attorney firings. If we stoop to their tactics, we're no better than they are, or not much. Attacking the policies is one thing; ad hominem attacks against the people pushing them are another.

I'm not saying I'm ready to cut loose from MoveOn as yet...but the extreme rhetoric of their ads (and the understandable response from critics, which in turn generates letters like the one in our local paper I cited a couple entries back) makes me at least start wondering whether I should. The end cannot justify the means; like the man said, "'an eye for an eye' makes the whole world blind."

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

Hold it, I've heard this conversation before, but I'm Ron Silver and you're Rob Lowe:

SAM
Leadership by example. There's such a thing as leadership by example.

BRUNO
Yeah, it comes right before getting your ass kicked in an election.

It's great to say that you're going to take the high road and not get into personal attacks and respect our opponents--but in the meantime, the electorate is seeing one side get painted black, and the other side not get painted at all.

BRUNO
We all need some therapy, because somebody came along and said "liberal" means soft on crime, soft on drugs, soft on Communism, soft on defense, and we're gonna tax you back to the Stone Age because people shouldn't have to go to work if they don't want to. And instead of saying "Well, excuse me, you right-wing, reactionary, xenophobic, homophobic, anti-education, anti-choice, pro-gun, 'Leave it to Beaver' trip back to the fifties," we cowered in the corner and said "Please, don't hurt me." No more.

We need some rhetoric on our side, desperately. We need someone pointing out what the Democrats on Capitol Hill aren't willing to, for fear of somehow offending someone:

We were lied to, and thousands of Americans and far more Iraqis have died because of it. Every time President Bush or one of his cronies announces some form of a "stay the course" policy, he's condemning more Americans and Iraqis to death.

We brought death and destruction in the form of sectarian violence we can't control to a populace who did us no harm because we didn't like their leader, and did it under false pretenses and against the advice of the world community.

We are being stripped of our fundamental freedoms in the name of security.

President Bush and his Administration are killing this country deader than any nuclear weapon could.

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

(Quotations taken from The West Wing episode 3.06, "Gone Quiet.")

[shelleybear.livejournal.com]

Yep.
Now it is up to MoveOn to keep reminding people of the Larry Craigs and the Mark Foleys. Of the administration's affiliation with Haggard.
To attack the attack dogs.
When we get in office, we can fix things.
But first you need to get in office.

[osewalrus.livejournal.com]

There's not going eye for eye, and then there's being a hopeless patsy.

Moveon has it right. The mood of the country is right. It works on every level.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Surely you jest!

"Traitor" is the least of what the thugs now occupying the White House, and their crooked cronies, rolls out whenever someone dast disagree with their projection of macho fantasies.

But when MoveOn has the cojones to make a simple pun that not only has the strength of truth, but also reopens and maintains dialogue on a subject that ought to be priority one -- getting the US out of this unnecessary and criminal war -- you want to cut and run? Grow a spine!

Me, I think we ALL ought to hear what Senator Ken Salazar did, and shout it loud:

Salazar, a Colorado Democrat, previously has not supported Congress using its ability to stop war payments in order to force President Bush to change direction…”If it could be done then I think we ought to take a look at it,” Salazar said. […]

While in Iraq over the weekend, Salazar said, some service men and women told him that they wanted Congress to cut off funding.

NO. MORE. FUNDS. EXCEPT. FOR. SAFETY. AND. WITHDRAWAL.

(While we're at it, let's hear from the major candidates for President how many troops they think they're going to have over there during their term. If the answer is anything greater than "as many as are necessary to defend the embassy", send 'em to the back of the line with the Intelligent Design Republicans.)

[shelleybear.livejournal.com]

The only candidates who are actively saying "enough is enough" are:
Gravel, Richardson and Kucinich.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

I thought Dodd also had gotten clear on the issue. I'm waiting for Edwards to realize that he needs to speak clearly about getting out and staying out; I don't expect Mrs. Triangulation or Obama to come clean, because they don't yet get that it plays in Peoria.

With luck, the voters will inform them quickly and solidly, in a way that precludes Hillary's nomination and allows a real leader to get elected.

[shelleybear.livejournal.com]

The problem with Dodd is he initially came off as a hack politician during the debate forums.
I am sooooooooo tired of political hacks and insiders that I have tended to take everything he says with a grain of salt.
Richardson has had a clear, well thought out and reasonable view on this from the get go.
Hilarity and Backroom?
Nope.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

*nods*

If I thought he had a prayer of a chance at the nomination, I'd be wholeheartedly behind Dennis Kucinich. (He doesn't. It's a damned shame, but his nonzero chance of being nominated is truly insignificant. Still, it's good to have him in there, as well as Richardson -- whose chances dwindle with each public misstatement, of which there have been embarrassingly many already -- pushing the others in the right direction. Except Hillary, of course, who doesn't get pushed by her friends, but only the folks who laugh when she triangulates in exactly the direction they wanted, away from the correct one, in the first place.)

Wow. Verbose this morning. Must sleep.

Keep You Awake

[shelleybear.livejournal.com]

I winced when Richardson made the "choice" vs "nature" crack on the H.R.C.
Okay, it was a trick question, and Etheridge should not have asked it.
On the other hand, IF Bill had been thinking straight, the proper response (and not just for purposes of political correctness) is "choice or nature has nothing to do with it. Everyone is entitled to the same rights and freedoms under the law".
Trust me, you have NO idea how much I was banging my head against the wall that night.
Oh, and yeah, I still support Richardson (New Mexico = same sex adoption, deeds not words). I just wish he'd go from civil contract to marriage.

Re: Keep You Awake

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Did you notice Richardson's goof at the SEIU event? Not that it's hard to remember who your hosts are when there's two big banners with their initials facing you, but to call them by their rival's name? Not good.

[osewalrus.livejournal.com]

Edwards led the charge on speaking clearly on this. Go back to his Memorial Day speech -- which got slammed by the conservative media for being "unpatriotic" to call for a withdrawal on Memorial Day.

Edwards was out front on this when other candidates were waffling. He has consistently shaped the debate by leading on Iraq, then poverty, then health care. But the mainstream media doesn't cover it until Clinton and Obama respond.

[shelleybear.livejournal.com]

Whiners.
Righteous indignation from the party of the "Swift Boat Veterans".
Betrayus is singing a very different tune from what he once did.
Bush has another "Colin Powell" who will fall on his sword to appease his master.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Absolute agreement with everybody else here.

The Repubs and their punditry lackeys can dish it out but they can't take it, not even a bit of it, especially not thoroughly documented and shoved in their faces. These motherfuckers have already Swift-Boated MoveOn.org over the "Nazi ads" a few years ago. They don't like MoveOn.org because MoveOn.org scores points in a big way, and they use the same emotional phrases that the Repubs use... only against the Repubs.

And, bluntly, Nice Polite Republicans has been bought and paid for for a few years now. I can't stand listening to them; they keep omitting pretty much all the facts below the surface. Remember, it was on NPR that Rove gave his pre-election 2006 riff about "I've got the real numbers". They have become like CNN, no more than a propaganda tool (as opposed to Faux Noise, a true propaganda machine).

Xtremes bad, thinking good.

[a-phoenix-afire.livejournal.com]

I guy I knew who was a member of the National Rifle Association made a really good point once. He said, "If the three million people who oppose us wanted to get rid of the NRA, all they'd have to do is join it, and then vote to disband it."

Don't give up on them. Work for whatever change you conclude is necessary. Instead of asking those here if they've gone too far, write to them and ask them to tone it down a bit. Not sayin' I think it'll work, but that's how you come to have a real effect on the larger world; you act on it. If enough people say the same thing, their voice will be heard even if they are not the majority.

The bomb throwers don't speak for the rational people on either side. They are mostly in it for whatever the attention it brings, gains them.

I love the West Wing quote BTW, but let's try to remember that it's a TV show with a Democratic agenda and therefore viewpoint. You have to love Arron Sorkin's dialog though. The guy is pure genius, and he very often got both sides of the issue right. It's too bad that he wasn't there for the last season.

You miss a critical element of the framing

[osewalrus.livejournal.com]

"Betrayal" allows people who voted for Bush and Republicans previously to vote D in 2008 without admitting to themselves or to others that they now feel they made a huge mistake.

"It wasn't our fault! We were betrayed!"

I think it is an excellent meme. And, like much else that is excellent, it has the virtue of being true.